The Fiduciary U™ Podcast

Josh Itzoe (00:02.451)
Hey Grant, welcome to the Fiduciary U Podcast. So glad you could join me today.

Grant Ellis (00:06.242)
Yeah, Josh, thanks for having me,

Josh Itzoe (00:08.411)
I, you know, we just did a little, little prep before the, before we hit record. And I am really excited about today's conversation. You know, I kind of stalked you on LinkedIn a little bit. I think you've become the kind of this little LinkedIn star with your insights and, and in the industry. I don't know how many clients or prospects read that stuff. I think in the industry, it's mostly folks like us that, that, that reading comment, but okay.

Grant Ellis (00:35.884)
More than you would think. More than you would think.

Josh Itzoe (00:38.163)
That's good. So we'll dive into that a little bit. But I always feel like you've got these really kind of incredible complex but simply articulated insights. And that's originally kind of how I came across you. And looking forward to having a really, really good discussion. Have a lot of respect for what you're doing with your firm. Maybe for people that don't know.

Grant Ellis (00:41.346)
Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (01:04.178)
you know, kind of the Grand Isle story. Why don't you give kind of a little quick synopsis of who you are and how you've kind of got to be, you know, where you're at at this point.

Grant Ellis (01:15.054)
Yeah, I'm happy to. don't think in our world, it's very hard to explain who we are sometimes. Anybody that's not in our business is like, I don't have any idea what you actually do. But yeah, I'm I'm a 401k guy by kind of blood and trade, if you will. My dad was a TPA. So he owned a third party administration firm for 45 years. Um, I didn't know what any of that meant. Uh, you know, he was an act, he's an actuary, like super smart dude. Um, all I knew was he owned his own business and he was at all of my baseball games.

That's what I knew about. And so I was super grateful for that. so, but along the way, like this, I love hearing people's stories and like the short version of mine, I was a really good golfer in high school. I'm always, I'm kind of fascinated by how people get into our business, which is why I share it. Cause it's not something, you know, you don't grow up going, I can't wait to be a 401k advisor when I'm older, it's going to be awesome. and I played golf competitively in high school and throughout college, my dad used to

Like have me come play in some of these charity golf tournaments as a ringer, because I was really good. And I never knew what I was doing with like who these people were, but it turns out these are like wholesalers, right? Wholesalers, record keepers, all these kinds of things like that. And that's how I met who would get me into the industry. After I graduated from school, um, one of them, that the, one of the guys that was a wholesaler for my dad was like, Hey, I Grant graduated. Does he have any interest in coming in to interview and to be my enroller? Uh,

And I didn't know what that meant either, but I was like, yeah, let's go. So they did the whole dog and pony show and like, was a big interview process and flew me out there and they flew here and all these things looking back kind of wildly overdone for an enroller position. but the, the, the key piece of that story is I was in Atlanta interviewing all day, kind of an eight, eight round system and had to present at the end on any topic of my choosing on the fly. Like it was crazy. And, at the end they kept saying, we want you to meet.

Amy, want you to meet Amy. It's like, all right, who, I don't know who Amy is. She was the head of the division and they're like, you just, gotta meet her too. They all right. Well, they took me back to the airport and they said, Amy couldn't make it. She had to get on a flight. Like she's sorry. And I was like, okay, whatever. I'm 22 years old. don't know who Amy is. And I was sitting in the gate. had my tie undone and this, woman came up to me she said, Hey, are you Grant? And I was like, yes ma'am, I am. And she said, I'm Amy.

Grant Ellis (03:36.874)
this is Amy Addison is her name. I had to get her a little credit cause she is my, by far one of the most influential people in my career upbringing. And she said, Hey, I'm sorry. I didn't get to talk to you today. Like I know you're sitting here tired, but do you have a little while? My flight got delayed. I'm at the gate next to you. Can we just sit and chat for a little while? And that's how my career started at the end of that conversation. She said, I know that you were enrolling to be, interviewing to be this enroller, but I want you to come work for me.

Will you come be an internal wholesaler on the desk in Atlanta? And I said, I will, I will do that. And that's how I started. So I spent a couple of years on the desk, super cocky, thought I knew everything after five seconds of learning, you know, Arissa and had a great time. And then, went my, when convinced my dad to let me come back and work at his TPA firm. which looking back was again, another, you kind of look back on these, you know, ordained moments of

Amy had no reason. I was unlicensed, I no experience, nothing. And she gave me a shot. And then my dad, I mean, I got to give him all the credit. I was like, Hey, I want to come back and, you know, buy some of your firm and take over over time, you know, like super cocky and young. And, and he let me come and learn from him and learn not only, so I learned the record keeping business and the TPA business. spent seven years there.

And then along the way was introduced to the advisory side of what we do. And it really latched onto that. kind of liked, not a, I'm not in a sit in the back of the room and run actuarial valuations kind of guy. I'm much more of like, let's go out and hear the stories and be with the people. And so I approached my dad and I said, Hey, I want to open an advisory firm while I work here. Right. So again, looking back, he was a non-producing TPA and I'm asking him to open up an internal shop.

And basically compete against everybody who feeds him business. I didn't know I was doing that, but looking back and to his credit, he said, if that's what you want to do, I support it. And I was like, yeah, like, look, it gives me chills now. and so like God brought those moments into my life of just people who allow me to kind of move in these directions, in spite of what an idiot I was. And so I opened an advisory practice and I was 27 and I've had several cents and I've sold a couple,

Grant Ellis (05:59.086)
done some had an RIA, I've been on the BD side, closed it all and, and consulted with a big huge international firm and along the way open to peanut butter. It's been a wild ride. But basically I've, I have owned and operated an advisory firm for the last 20 years, 17 years except for one year when I consulted for that other, that our firm and that's what we do now. So we do a lot of 401k work and we also do wealth management stuff for

Mostly people inside of the 401k and I just love, I love what we do. I love the impact that people in our industry can have on like real people's lives. and I'm just really, really grateful to be able to be a part of it.

Josh Itzoe (06:42.175)
So, you know, it's interesting and I learned a little bit of backstory earlier, but how would you say that, you know, you had a post, I think maybe yesterday, I think I commented on it, and it was really about kind of this...

you know, plant sponsors are overwhelmed with running their business, which retirement is important, but like keeping the doors open and running their business is the highest priority. know, without that, you have no 401k. And, you know, I think you have a lot of I feel like you always have really good insights into kind of the mind of these business owners. And I wonder how much of that, you know, it's interesting. You you you've obviously. Owned.

Grant Ellis (07:12.397)
Yep.

Josh Itzoe (07:31.582)
an advisory firm or advisory firms for a long time, but you mentioned you started a peanut butter company. You started, think you mentioned like a golf product company. Like you've had these other businesses, not just in the financial services world. How would you say, and I think you, without diving too deep into it, I think the peanut butter company, you mentioned that you raised capital for it and.

You know, you grew pretty quickly and you had 15 employees and then things kind of maybe went a little bit sideways and you had to close that down over six months. You're welcome. welcome. You know, I don't, I don't want to, you know, I don't want give you like, you know, peanut butter PTSD or anything like that, but how, couple of questions. Number one, how would you say owning other businesses has helped you in terms of how you engage with business owners?

Grant Ellis (08:06.19)
It's a nice way of putting it. Thank you for being kind and gentle with me, Josh. I appreciate that.

Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (08:28.575)
now. And what were some of the things you learned, especially with kind of the challenge of, let's say that peanut butter company and growing and having success and then having to kind of shut that down and how have those different experiences gotten you to where you are? Because one of the things you said to me before we started recording was you're having more fun than you've ever had at any point in your career. And that's obviously been

you know, that didn't come overnight. So maybe share a couple of thoughts about those things.

Grant Ellis (09:01.742)
Yeah, I think our industry and most industries, not just ours, are very good at teaching sales and technical skills in that order. Right? So our world, especially it's like, let's just train you how to sell and then maybe you'll pick up some technical skills along the way. If you are somebody who likes to learn a lot of people don't, what we don't think about is just the human element. I think our industry is moving in that direction. There's a lot of good people doing good work around kind of the human intelligence, emotional intelligence side of things.

But that's what everything all of us do. That's what it is. We're in the human business. And don't care whether you're selling widgets or you're advising people in 401ks. So to me, it was probably a little bit of OCD and overthinking things of just when I was going through all these trainings and whatnot, I'm trying to figure out how to overcome objections and how to say the right things. it just, you know, going over these emails over and over again with teachers who teach copywriting and how are you going to say this to influence the person across the table from you? And I, I,

lived that training sales training game for so long. And then it just kind of blew my mind up to where I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. My entire focus was as I was trained, everyone's a prospect and how am I supposed to like, kind of convince them to work with us? And I, and it, and it really, was detrimental to not my career in the longterm, but to kind of my appreciation and love of the industry.

to the point of where part of the reason I opened the peanut butter company was because I was so fed up with our industry. Because it just didn't make sense. Nobody was talking about how do we, what problems are we trying to solve for these people? What are they dealing with? And not just business. If you think about it, especially now post COVID, everything we do is integrated. There is no business life like, this is the shiny pictures. It's like, no, no, no, no. We're just all humans trying to figure all this stuff out. And so I got, I got really fed up with the industry because I thought that's the only way it

could be done. And that's what I was being told. Like, hey, if you want to be successful, you have to do it this way. You have to cold call. You have to convince people you have to do this. And I was like, well, then I don't know if I can do it. And so I opened up the peanut butter company, number one, because I love business and operations and all of the things associated with it and building things. And I was just finding some kind of outlet to give me a break from the grind of the financial industry. Thankfully, I didn't.

Grant Ellis (11:24.066)
get completely out. And I thought about it, but that would have been tough to come back with. But through the peanut butter company, was, it was allowing myself and my, my mind and my brain to figure out what lights me up. We talked about that a little bit when we were talking before we started recording of like, listen, you, gotta, you've got to make a choice here. And I remember sitting there thinking about this in the back of the, had a manufacturing facility and I was in the back and part of it was like, I get to roll my sleeves up and get

Dirty and do hard, real work. Cause I feel like I'm playing games all day long. And I remember sitting there thinking that you've got a choice to make here. You cannot do it the way that everybody else says that you have to do it. You just can't you're going to burn out. It's not you. You're not being a authentic. You're not, you know, in none of that stuff. So you've either got to figure out how to do it your way and just be you, or you've got to get out. That's it. Like go all in somewhere else. And I remember thinking, well, like,

for lack of better term, screw it, I'm going to do it my way. And so after the peanut butter company, which was a big, huge, colossal hard thing of firing people and telling investors that they were losing money and all of this, which is a whole different story, there were these periods of, of really thinking, can't, but can I do it this way? I'm not a natural salesperson. I'm not a natural prospector. I'm not a hunter killer. I'm not an ABC guy, like always be closing. And so I put a lot of time,

and thought and prayer into can this be done? Is there a way to be successful in our industry and enjoy it without being a sales robot? And I believe there it, I believed at the time there was, and I was willing to kind of go through that, but that whole process kind of allowed me to think through kind of unlearning sales training and learning the human condition a little bit.

And so part of that was just being like the peanut butter company, all those experiences dealing with clients and very difficult issues of I'm 44 now. And so I've had clients pass away. I've been in the room with hospice. I've gone through these scenarios that you can't fully understand until you've been through them. And that connects you in a different way, right? So when that client, I'll give you an example. This is fresh. I haven't talked about this yet. We had a

Grant Ellis (13:42.446)
a client that's been a client for 15 years, both 401k and personally passed away last week. It goes in for the fairly routine heart procedure and never comes out. I have a text message on my phone from her. I have a voicemail on my phone from her from two days prior of, Hey, we were laughing. That's how much, that's how close we were. She's a mentor to me, a friend. And she texted me and said she's recovering a little slower than she thought. And two days later, she passes away.

when you go through that and her family calls me the next day and I've never met these other days, she didn't have kids as your family in a different state. And they said, we don't know anything other than we don't know what to do. And, and she told us to call you. That's, that's deeper. Right? So I, when I think about the work, was like, I shifted my brain and I literally still do this into not how many prospects can I find or how much business can I drive? How many people can I help today?

So everything I do is around like, I, and this is selfish. had to do this to be able to live and survive of when I was in the car, I was retraining my brain before meeting it. This is not a prospect. This is somebody that you want to hear their story and see if you can add some value. If nothing else, make them smile today and see if you can help them. And if you do that and you help enough people, I believe that you also be able to pay your bills and grow your business. And so

I tell people like, if anything, if I could go back the technical experience, it was hugely helpful. It really like, I, you have to know what you're doing. Right. I'm grateful to have been on the record keeping side and the TPA side, cause it gave me that perspective. Now that I'm on the advisory side and as you're learning that though, the ability to learn EQ, emotional quotient, human intelligence, and understand people by far to me, the most important skillset you could learn. If I had to get another master's

which I could just get education all the time. It would be in psychology of looking across the table at somebody and understanding what they're feeling, what they're thinking, what they need, what they're trying to solve for and being able to provide value to me, even if it won't benefit you personally in that moment. So I just had to, it just helped me change my philosophy about everything I do.

Josh Itzoe (15:58.984)
I love that. you know, that number one, sorry to hear about, you know, the loss of a friend and a mentor and probably a client is far down the list. You know, it was a person who was meaningful in your life. But, you know, it's funny in the industry, you know, and early on, you know,

Grant Ellis (16:09.656)
Thank you.

Yeah, for sure.

Josh Itzoe (16:27.377)
I kind of connected this concept of being a fiduciary. I think, you we, think you saw in one of your posts kind of like, maybe you got it from Sullivan was like, you're seeing or whatnot. It's become very much more of like a marketing term to draw the drawer over the past, however many years it used to be kind of, but it's not.

Grant Ellis (16:38.328)
Yeah.

Grant Ellis (16:43.384)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Itzoe (16:52.463)
marketing, it's more of like a DNA mindset. I mean, the essence is to be others focused. And that's really what I hear you saying is, and, know, it's something that I really kind of connect with, because from my perspective, it's, I feel a kindredness with you. Like, it wasn't something that we used to try to sell with. It was more of inherent, it just connected this idea. If you can...

put other people's interests before your own, the essence of being a fiduciary, it opens up all these avenues for how you can help. And sometimes that may be like, you know what, I'm not the best person to help you, but let me help you find the best person. And just being able to, that trust, not looking at people as you're a prospect or it's a sale.

Grant Ellis (17:37.262)
Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (17:49.984)
but how can we understand where you are, what's important to you, where you are in the decision-making process and the timeframe and be aligned in that? And then are there ways that we can help? And that may mean we're not the right people to do it, but we can help you find the right people. I just think that's such a good way to live, not just, you

Business and personal, you're right. I think the lines have blurred. Everything's relational and relationships that are based in trust, not the, you can trust me. Whenever somebody says you can trust me, immediately I'm like, I can't trust this person. It's easy to say those things. It's more about how do you act and how do you engage. And it's easy to say the right things. It's a lot harder to do the right things. And I sense when you say I'm not

And I was always the same way. I wasn't great at lead, lead, Jen or prospecting. I kind of hated it, to be honest with you. it didn't feel authentic to me. it felt very transactional. but this desire to help people, I sense that's probably why you're a lot better at selling because you're actually not trying to sell. You're just trying to serve. And I feel like in the industry, if we really embrace that idea,

I'm not selling, I'm serving. And whether that serving leads to the outcome that I want or not, I'm gonna do it because it's the right thing for the person who's sitting in front of me. I would suspect that's probably why you've had the success you have because everybody can sense a sales pitch coming. Everybody can, and very few people like to be sold. Everybody loves to buy.

but people don't like to be sold. And I suspect you're probably a lot better at selling because you don't actually try to sell people. People wind up wanting to work with you because they see how you interact with them. Do you say that's fair?

Grant Ellis (19:59.244)
Yeah, they, you know, the, yes, the, mean, it's hard because I mean, I'm a human being too, right? Like I want to grow. We want to do well. And the S word, still makes me cringe. And by the S word, mean, selling and the reality it's true. I don't care what, for me, terminology is important. It really is. And that's personal because it affects how I think through these things. All of this is more for me than anything else. So I want to be very upfront about, I have to keep myself in check because I'm pulled towards that. I'm pulled towards more and you know,

all the things, all the trappings of, of what we do. And so I, I, I don't want people to think when I talk about these things that it's, it's this kind of humble, braggy kind of stuff. It's like, no, it's I'm fighting against the worst parts of myself. That's what I'm doing. And so I actually sometimes have to rein that into I've had, I had a client recently has said like, you got to quit saying you're bad at sales because you're obviously not. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. I don't need to be so self-deprecating. I do have gifts and skills and

So I'm always running that balance of trying to understand being confident in the gifts and the skillsets that you have versus being humble. And it's a hard thing for me. You can kind of ping pong a little bit back and forth. But what I always go back to is the one day if the Lord lets me live to be 90 and I'm 44, like life is short. I'm going to look back and I know all the cliche things, but I, there's no way in this world I'm going to look back and be like, I'm so glad I made all the money and

didn't see my kids and give me a break. But yet that's what so many people do. So those, have these things that I've trained my brain to kind of ask those questions. Let's say I'm in front of a big prospect. Of course I want to, I want to get that prospect, right? and so what I do is I have this kind of framework of, literally go through these questions in my head to reorient myself.

Because if I get, I've gotten out of meetings and if I get pulled in that way and I try to say what I think they want to hear, it doesn't go well for me. And I leave and I'm like, wasn't wrong. It was just not me. And so I sit there before that meeting and I say, listen, what's the goal here to get to know somebody, to hear their story and to see if there's anything you can do to help. That's it. And so it does free me up to be able to grow the business because

Josh Itzoe (21:59.84)
right?

Grant Ellis (22:19.18)
That's it takes the pressure off of like the outcome. It's like I control the input, but not the outcome. I will say though, that I think it's a struggle for the consumer right now because we kind of laugh, but every nobody ever comes in and says, I'm super dishonest and only concerned about taking advantage of you. So the consumer sometimes is left to figure out, both of you are saying the right things. One of the things we do is just really encourage people to talk to clients.

Right? Like you've got to know what it's really like to work with somebody. And again, we might not be like, love what you said. It might not be us. Like that's not our goal is to help you get where you need to be. It might not be us and we're okay. Like we're not bills are paid. We don't, we're good. We're going to be friends. Right? But if you really want to know there's different models and like, here's our client list, go call them and chat with them. That's the only way to figure out what actually happens once you, once you begin to work with somebody.

Josh Itzoe (23:14.951)
Absolutely. Yeah, I think the, I love what you said. Like you love to hear people's stories and.

You know, as advisors, we love to kind of tell people what to do. One of my philosophies was always to focus on the why, not the what.

Grant Ellis (23:38.456)
Preach it, Josh. That needs to be preached loud and clear these days, my man.

Josh Itzoe (23:39.904)
Because I feel like if you articulate the why to people, the what is going to take care of itself. But in order to share the why and to kind of earn the right to be heard in sharing the why, you have to hear their story. And everybody has a story. And sadly, in this day and age,

Most people wanna tell their story when they sit in front and advisors wanna tell the story when they sit in front, which is important. There will be a time for that. But I think you really honor people when you ask them to tell their story. And I love just what you're, know, the fact that you, I find stories to be fascinating. And when you give people space to do that, they will...

they will be authentic. The walls will come down. They'll start to be vulnerable. And I think vulnerability is really when deep relationship and deep meaningful conversation, not that kind of high level first tier conversation, but that deeper stuff. And then, like you said, the technical, everybody says this is a relationship business and there's no doubt that it is, but you have to have the technical chops.

Grant Ellis (25:07.053)
No question.

Josh Itzoe (25:07.185)
I know a lot of people that are like great relationally, but they don't have the technical chops and you need to be able to kind of develop and bring both together. And, you you mentioned frameworks and that I think is so important for every advisor listening. You need to have a set of principles that you believe in. It doesn't have to, you don't need everybody to believe with the same thing as you, but you need to have a set of principles. You need to have a framework.

I think for life, I think for business. And as you articulate that, the goal isn't to get every single person to see the world the same way. It's really to find those people who do see the world the same way and then kind of the magic happens from there. And I know I think that was one of my secrets of success is that I had a set of principles that I developed over time. And some of the things I came up with on my own, most of it I didn't though. It was from hearing from

other people and other perspectives and then running that through my own kind of internal framework of like, do I believe this? Why do I believe this? Why don't I believe this? And then developing kind of my own philosophy that I could then share. And, you know, I was really trying to find as I was having conversations with people and hearing stories is like, does this person align in a similar way? Do we see the world in a similar way? Because if we do, I know we'll do really good work together. And if we don't, you know, they're going to

I'm not going to be a good fit for them. They're going to find me to be a pain because I'm going to push them to do things they don't want to do. And they're going to suck the life out of me. And kind of this idea we talked a little bit earlier before we recorded. But, you know, one of the frameworks for life for me is like trying to really be intentional about thinking what gives me life and breathe, breathe life into me and what sucks the life out of me. And let me try to integrate and orient my life in a way.

that I do less things that suck the life out of me. We all have to do some things that suck the life out of us, but how do I spend more time doing things that breathe life into me? Because when that happens, I can actually breathe life into the people around me. I'm a tough person to be around. Like if I'm burned out and beat down and I'm really hard to be around. Ask my family, ask my wife, ask my kids, ask people who used to work for me. Like when I'm in a...

Grant Ellis (27:18.318)
you

Josh Itzoe (27:30.633)
healthy kind of like life giving place, I can give life to everybody around me. When I'm not, I will, am a very difficult person to be around. so tell me a little bit about, cause that's when I see you post on LinkedIn and I love, think you're one of the best followers on LinkedIn. And I'd encourage anybody who's not following Grant to do that. You seem like you, you mentioned these frameworks. You seem like you've been really intentional about that. Why don't you talk a little bit about both

What are some of the frameworks? Articulate your philosophy a little bit. And then also, maybe talk about how you develop that. Because that's where I feel like you have a really advanced skill set is that you think deeply about things and then you filter it through this set of beliefs or principles you have. And then it allows you to kind of like sit in front of somebody, hear their story and know.

How do I apply my philosophy to the needs of this person?

Grant Ellis (28:34.54)
When you say philosophy, you mean like philosophy around 401k consulting or life or all of the above?

Josh Itzoe (28:40.029)
Well, I would say, I would say maybe, I would say perhaps both. I think with you, I'm reaching maybe a little here, like, I don't think, I don't sense that you're a guy who compartmentalizes your life. When I look at what you post on LinkedIn and even having conversations with you, I would say you've been very successful at leading what I would consider to be a fully.

integrated life, not a compartmentalized. So I actually don't, I think probably your life philosophies flow into like your 401k consulting philosophies and probably the other way around. So if you want to talk about them, you know, separately or one or the other, great. I just think you have a lot of wisdom that when I interact with you on LinkedIn, because that's the primary where I see the stuff that you post. I don't look and say,

grants this incredible 401k advisor. I feel like that. But what I really see when I interact with what you post is I'm like, this guy has a lot of wisdom. And one of my core philosophies in life is to find wisdom and to find people who are wise and then try to spend as much time around people who are wise as possible with the hope that some of that wisdom is going to rub off on me. And so

Grant Ellis (30:05.134)
Same. I do the same thing. I, yeah, I know. And I appreciate the kind words. I'm not good at taking compliments, but I appreciate the kindness and the generous words. Everything I know, man, if you want, if you, if you want to get trained in how to be self-deprecating, I got you covered. We'll talk about that for sure. You know, yeah, I'm a, framework guy. And, again, a lot of this is, is self-serving the frameworks that I have in place. And I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just like,

Josh Itzoe (30:14.483)
You're falling into that self-deprecating. I get it. I get it.

Grant Ellis (30:31.554)
I'm trying to figure out how to be a human and a, you know, a Christian and a dad and all the things, all the things that make us us. can't compartmentalize. I'm not built that way. And for me, the biggest stages of growth in my life, which honestly have been over the last few years, if you looked at my life now compared to a decade ago, it's very, very different in terms of my business, my mental health, my emotional health, my spiritual health, all of those things, because I had to figure this thing out. And it started with

figuring out that I've just got to do it my way. I'm not like in a selfish way, but there's got to be me as cliche as that sounds. And so to be able to do that, rather than thinking of like, what is this person? I'm a people pleaser by nature. I want people to like me. I guess everybody probably wants people to like them in some form or shape, but I really do. And, and even you were talking about the prospecting element of, of meeting with people. I used to live and die by every prospect meeting of it. Wasn't it wasn't

you know, Hey, did I get this or not? It was pass fail, good, bad. was, you're bad at what you do. And so I was internally internalizing these things in the wrong ways that were not healthy. A couple of things. Number one, big believer in therapy and counseling. and I've been through plenty of it just to help people look at that as a, this is negative. Hey, you've got issues and everybody has issues by the way. But for me, I'm, I'm a thinker and I'm thinking a lot and the ability it's why I write is to get it out.

And that's kind of what therapy and counseling is. It's just like a sounding board to be able to think through these things and process information. It's probably something I'm most grateful for is the way my brain works. And also it's one of the most difficult things because it's just always running. So what I have to do in business and in life is just have some, things that I can key in on. And that's when I say frameworks, even when I'm talking to like, we have a new advisor and I'm working through frameworks with him. It's so that I don't always have to create something from scratch. There are these models in my mind.

that I'm always working through. And honestly, they start with the fact that we're all going to die. And that sounds kind of crazy, but if you put everything through that lens, your life would look very, very different, most likely than it does right now. Right. And I'll sit in on that for a second of when I get caught up in all of this stuff, as I do, as every other human does of I need more of this and I'm not good enough because my business isn't this big. And if I only have this and like, as a, as a financial advisor, you know, my

Grant Ellis (32:55.224)
poor wife, I'm like, we got to get back in the budget and like the kids are expensive. And, and I get like everybody else does where you're really narrowly focused on whatever's dealing right now. And then you shift that perspective to man, you're gonna die one day, like what really, really matters. I've got so much work to do, the list is never done. And my kid needs to be picked up from school to go to the doctor. It's very easy and nobody would

would think you were wrong to say like, listen, I can't do it. Like I need somebody else to pick them up. I've got a big meeting. I got a big thing. I don't question those things anymore. Zero question. I'm going to get my son. And I tell clients that and what, so for me, what happens though, is when you start to do that, you start to really live into your values as, kind of way I think through it is people are attracted to that. Who would have thought, right? So I used to really worry. I used to meet clients whenever

wherever like badge of honor you want to meet Saturday morning for let's go. And you know, it's terrible. And now I'm very, very clear. I don't we don't do we don't do events out. We don't do games and drinks and dinner, nothing. And we tell our clients we're not going to, hey, we're the type of people I'm going to spend that time with my family. That's their time. And I want you to be able to do whatever you want to do with your time after 5pm not have to hang out with me.

So it goes back to actually what you were saying is we're looking to work with people who have a similar worldview, right? And so that framework's very, very important of, Hey, it starts off with, I'm going to die one day. so live accordingly, quit acting like you have all of this time to spend with your kids and your family and all the things. And if you only get a little bit more money and a little bit more status and everything's going to be okay.

that changes things for me. And so I reorient back to those things. I'm a man of faith. My faith is very important. That goes through that lens every single time of how would God want me to act in the situation. And then everything else is I'm trying to have really loose frameworks for how I see the world and interact with business and life. And what I mean by that is like my, my 401k process is a very, very loose overarching framework of focusing on what we're trying to accomplish. Right? Like you said before,

Grant Ellis (35:11.458)
we get really caught up in the shiny new objects and tools. And I keep saying, mean, that's why I've been preaching a little bit more lately on LinkedIn is the tools are not the objectives and the tools are going to change. And you see it all the time. It's like, well, we have this and we have this. You're like, okay, cool. Well, guess what? AI is here and that's going to go away in a year. So what are we really trying to solve for? and, really having frameworks around the basic technical skills and things like that. But when it comes to like the LinkedIn thing,

I mentioned before when we were prepping, I have kind of all these little side missions in our world and I probably have too many. There's a few different ones. One is I'm very frustrated. I do. man, I want to do it all. I really do. I like, it's a, it's a, so, you know, it's a blessing and a curse because I literally like, I'm like, I want this thing and I want to do this thing and I want a master's in this and.

Josh Itzoe (35:48.701)
You have professional ADD.

Yeah, I have it too. So I totally get it.

Josh Itzoe (36:02.655)
You know who it's really hard on? What I found and I have a much greater appreciation. I always took it as a badge of honor that, you know, one of the things I look for and I talk to my kids about, like, I think one of the most important characteristics in a human is curiosity and being curious and then chasing your curiosity and aligning your life so you can chase your curiosities. you know, I always kind of took pride in this, like,

I have a lot of wide varying interests and I like to break and rebuild stuff. And I always took that as like, and it is a strength. One of the things you said earlier, which I think is really good is embracing and recognizing there are strengths that I have. There are skills and abilities that God has gifted me with that not everybody has.

One of my mentors, said, he's like, Josh, one of the interesting things about you, he's like, most people in life are wired to see the dots. He's like, you see the lines in between the dots. And I've grown to appreciate that about myself. The challenge I realized is my desire always to break stuff and do it different or better and do it my way. Cause I'm like you, freedom is my highest.

personal kind of value, the freedom to do what I want, when I want, how I want, without having to get permission from anybody else. What I did realize running an advisory firm, like you have to bridle yourself a little bit. And I didn't do a great job of doing this. It's one of the things that, that looking back, I'm like, I wish I would have probably done this is not still leaning into how I'm wired, but that can get really chaotic on your staff. If you're trying to like, Hey, now we, we just like said, we were going to do it this way. And you know what? I have a better way to do it.

Grant Ellis (37:51.31)
Optimize, optimize, optimize, optimize.

Josh Itzoe (37:52.2)
And I think it's a delicate balance. You have to kind of have both where you should always be leaning into like, can we do things better, easier? Can we make complex things more simple? But I would imagine, and I don't know if you find this or not, does your staff sometimes are like, yeah, Grant's at it again, here he goes. Do you find like it can be chaotic at all on your team doing that?

Grant Ellis (38:16.11)
Sometimes, yes, I will tell you this though, like the, is company seven. the peanut butter company taught me more about how to lead a team than anybody, cause it was manufacturing in person college kids. Like, so I learned a lot about my deficiencies in that. And I think, you know, one of the beautiful things about being a human being, which I did not understand when I was younger is that part of the process of getting older is maturing.

and learning these things that can be strengths and weaknesses and learning how to use them as strengths. So even now when my brain gets into that mode, well, I know it now and I know to go, okay, well, I'm going to let this pause. I'm going to think about this. I'll, I'll even put dates on the calendar of, Hey, think about it until this time and then revisit and I'll speak to with my wife about it. So I'm much, I'm in, I'm not there yet. I'm significantly better and understanding my own brain and the way it works.

and therefore being able to filter it somewhat for the people who work for me.

Josh Itzoe (39:16.051)
Yeah, I would say that's been, know, I'm 50 now. I don't feel 50. It looked like I'm probably way older than 50, but actually I'm almost five one. But I would say, no, you didn't need to, I didn't need to feel even worse about it, Grant. But it's really interesting. You talked about maturity and I know even in my life, you when I was young, like I knew I had certain strengths.

Grant Ellis (39:20.847)
man, five no.

Grant Ellis (39:31.138)
I gotta haze you a little bit, I gotta haze you a little bit. No, I'm completely teasing.

Josh Itzoe (39:46.43)
I despised my weaknesses. I was ashamed of them, I hated them, and I grinded so hard to turn my weaknesses and try to turn them into strengths. And one of the things I realized, and maybe this is just getting older now, is I appreciate my strengths way more now than I did even five years ago, but I actually appreciate my weaknesses.

Grant Ellis (39:48.174)
Hmm.

Grant Ellis (39:52.557)
Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (40:11.249)
And kind of as I've recognized and instead of being this like albatross that hangs around my neck, like I have so much more grace for myself or like, you know what? Like one of the things I've realized, like I was have always been a bit more of a visionary. Like I'm. Not a great operator, like I I I can do it, but like my weaknesses and that's one thing I would tell.

Grant Ellis (40:20.334)
Hmm.

Josh Itzoe (40:40.531)
I think a lot of people, a lot of advisors, especially if you're early on, there's a lot of next-gen listeners with this podcast, is everybody tells you to work on your weaknesses. I would just say find your strengths and lean into those and then surround your people whose strengths are your weaknesses. That's one of the best things I could tell people to do. If you've got weaknesses, even if you like...

do a great job. Like you're probably going to be average at best in those areas because we're all wired differently. But really where I think magic happens is when you understand and embrace your strengths, don't despise your weaknesses, but really figure out like, can I take my natural strengths and really turn them into, know, where I can be elite? I don't know if that connects with you or not.

Grant Ellis (41:29.038)
no, that's a, mean, you could just record that piece and put that out there more. think it's arguably the most important thing that I am trying to teach my children is that strength and weaknesses do not mean good or bad. You know, we're so binary zero sum when we're kids of you're good at this, you're bad at this, you're good. And we wrap it all up. And I think every kid feels that way of that level, a little bit level of shame of

I'm not good at these things. And listen, the school system, whole another topic doesn't really help out with that, right? We rank everybody and everybody needs to be good at math and science and the kids who aren't as good and all the things. So it is extremely important to understand that we are all human beings, that we all have gifts and strengths and weaknesses and that you have inherent value because you're a human being made in the image of God and it has nothing. There's none of this. Like I, you see it all the time, right?

the 25 year old, whoever, whatever job and make you can feel it of they do something not well in their opinion. And it makes they that's their whole identity all of a sudden. And that was me too. That was, mean, I, when I was, I had a counselor at one point that asked me, said, I, why are you so hard on yourself? And I was like, I'm not hard on myself. You know, I'm not, and he had me go through some exercises and he was like, you're harder on yourself than anybody I've ever worked with. And I was like, Oh, that's not

it's not good. And so again, when it comes to like, circling back around even to like whatever LinkedIn, what everything, it's one life man, like we're, we're, trying to, to feed our kids and raise good kids and pay the bills and all the things. It's all intertwined for me. I just, I don't want to nor can I separate it. And I've learned now like with situations last week and all the

the people when I deal with people who also want to get to a little bit of a deeper level and mind you, we're not meeting one talking about, you know, our hopes and dreams and life, but eventually my clients, you know, you keep clients for 10 and 15 and 20 years. Those people become important to you and you have deeper conversations with lead to then better outcomes for them and their people in the 401k space. And listen, we haven't talked about it much, but participant education, financial wellness,

Josh Itzoe (43:26.878)
Right.

Grant Ellis (43:45.966)
Like this is it, man. Like this is the, it's baffling to me and other side missions baffling to me that we have companies still that aren't providing any source. And I'm saying 401k companies that aren't providing any bit of financial education or wellness for people. And now those terms are all don't mean anything anyway, right? Like, oh, financial wellness, but man, sit across the room from somebody who's concerned about whether they'll be able to pay their bills in retirement to get out, you know, get out of your own way here. That's what it's about to me.

And those people who are very difficult to serve simply because of the economics of the financial advice system, different conversation, what's the best way to help them? Well, it's paid for underneath the umbrella of the 401k program. So you get to sit across the table from people and give you an example. I was with a group a few weeks ago, a new group, and these are all blue collar, they do paving work for the government, right? So that is different from me as you could possibly be. So a couple of things.

know your audience, right? Like, I just want to be me and connect with these people. But we ended up having a conversation. I was having a conversation with a I call him a kid because he was 19 years old or something like that. 20 maybe. Down in rural Mississippi, it had dropped out of school after eighth grade. And it was very much of like this, you know, this is a world he doesn't know what a mutual fund is, right? We sit up here in our ivory towers talking about asset allocation and

Josh Itzoe (45:12.275)
I was going to say, bet you talked about asset allocation with them. Like, glide path, will target they glide path with them with the.

Grant Ellis (45:13.806)
I did. was like, well, let's talk about your asset allocation then. like, yeah, like, we say it like this. And we it's insane. But that's how we talk as an industry, right? So the ability of the whatever the fast forward and basically shown showing the kid how $25 a month out of his paycheck would lead to in 45 years. And surprise, surprise is actually a pretty big chunk of money. And he was like, man, I can do that. I got two kids, but I can do that. And he signs up.

Josh Itzoe (45:24.105)
Yeah. Right.

Grant Ellis (45:43.352)
puts little money in it. Like that's what it's about. So some of it is just like the ability for people in our world to let go of all the stuff that sometimes let going of the training and the sales and just connect with a human being across the table, whether it's a plan sponsor or participant and see how much impact you can have in their world. It's a beautiful way to approach life.

Josh Itzoe (46:07.431)
that. I love that. Yeah, you know, it's funny, one of the things, before I wound up

leaving Green Spring. I was having a conversation with one of my mentors and you know it's one of the things I think you talked about in a recent post too is I kind of took it a little bit like imposter syndrome that we all deal with but there's this and I'm similar to you in the sense of you know I never had mental health issues till I left Green Spring and that first year was really really hard and I actually met with a therapist and I'd never done that before and I was like you know from

you know, playing sports in high school and college and then professionally and I was always like, it was like, you got to be mentally tough. And I grinded through everything and the whole experience and kind of this rebirth professionally, almost broke me and I met with an incredible therapist and it took a lot to get me to do that because it was so counter to like this, like, I don't need that. Like I can just grind my way through this but

Grant Ellis (46:52.088)
Yeah.

Grant Ellis (47:06.083)
Mm-hmm.

Grant Ellis (47:13.486)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Itzoe (47:16.541)
you know, I met with this therapist and it was incredible. You know, I met with her for about a year and, and, you know, more than anything, like one of the things, you know, she, she taught me about myself, similar to like the one that you did was how hard I was on myself. But the thing she kept saying is she's like, you struggle with rumination. You ruminate on things. She's like, your brain does not stop. And so you constantly ruminate and you can't move forward if you're ruminating on the past.

Grant Ellis (47:41.442)
Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (47:46.852)
And, you know, it was an interesting and I think one of the things that everybody, this industry, right, it's all growth and scale and heck, that's the business I'm in now. Like, hey, we can provide you tools that can help you do that. You know, work smarter, work faster and scale and grow. But I had a mentor who, you know, really helped me just very close to me throughout kind of my whole adult life. And, you one of the questions he asked me before I left.

Grant Ellis (47:56.43)
Yep.

Josh Itzoe (48:14.717)
I was telling him, you know, if I do this and then this and the future and what I'm walking away from and this and that, and here's what I'm going to get. But here's what I'm like giving up. And he just said, like, how much is enough? How much is enough? And and not only financially, but like, do you want more in other areas? Like we talked about this a little bit before we started recording is like there are wealth is multidimensional. It's not just financial.

Grant Ellis (48:26.67)
Mm.

Josh Itzoe (48:44.223)
It's spiritual, it's relational, it's mental, it is physical. And I think that's a great question. And, know, when we get in this, feeling, you know, I think the identity that we have in the advisory world is like, how big is our business? How many employees do we have? How many plans do we work with? What are the assets? It's all of these metrics on like, what's that? That's a whole different, you know, I feel like, and that this is kind of like,

Grant Ellis (49:05.262)
What's the valuation going to be like when I retire?

Josh Itzoe (49:14.377)
feel like PE has what it's done is, you I used to talk to, you know, advisors, and it was like, well, how do we add more value to our relationships, all the stuff you're talking about. And now, like, the first question everybody asks is like, what's my valuation and whatnot? What's the multiple? And, you know, I think the question if we're doing good work, if you're doing and what I do now, what you do day to day with plan sponsors and with employees and with, you know, private wealth clients is

Grant Ellis (49:29.41)
What's the multiple? Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (49:45.071)
I think going back to maybe one of those philosophies or principles is just like, how do we just do good work? If we do good work.

Needs are going to get met. You're going to, if you do good work, like you're, you're going to wind up being successful and, and, but the things you're talking about, I think that's one of the things that I feel like marks you just in getting to know you a little bit is that, you know, you want to have a good business. You want to make a good living. You want to have all those, we all want those things, but

It seems like there are these other elements of your life that you ascribe probably even more value to, whether that be family or whether that be your faith or whether that be to with your kids. And it sounds like you attract similar types of people to work with.

Grant Ellis (50:44.952)
Yeah, I tried to, I do want to comment on something you said that I think it's important. think it's a really good point. You had mentioned from your mentor asking how much is enough, which I think is a really, a really great question that anybody can ask because it's hard to answer. had another advisor friend last week actually at a conference asked me a question and it was, wasn't, it was just kind of posing it from his perspective. He's a little bit younger than me, but it was, Hey, have you figured out what you really want? And I said, no, absolutely not. Like without hesitation.

because there is this element of there being this end goal, this kind of, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. We're always striving for this next thing. And I think that's normal. I really do. when you figure out that the, the striving, the journey is the enjoyable part. It's the thing. Then you make a lot of headway cause you're not as concerned about like for me, what is going to happen to my business when I'm 65 and I want to retire.

and so one of the exercises in terms of frameworks and exercises, I think through is like, what, what else could be added to your life right now that would add exponentially more value to it? The answer for me is zero. There is nothing I have as good of a life of as human being can have. have a 12 year old and a 14 year old who are healthy and still like me, the beautiful, awesome wife who supports me. have a business, I have a team. I'd literally there's like what another zero.

You know, like so, but that that framework for me, that question is there because I am a human being who gets pulled to more. And so I think part of it is giving yourself a little grace, you're going to be pulled towards things, right? You're going to be pulled towards more and shiny and I am all day every single day, but just having a way to reorient and to go, that's okay. Like, don't hate yourself. Like you, you know, I used to be the best at hating myself. And now it's like, no, no, that's

It's it is that's normal. And now just kind of rain it back in and refocus. And every once in a while, if it gets, you know, with burnout and things like that, and even this, the key is to catch this stuff when it's yellow light, not red light, right? Like I, you probably know now having gone through some of what you've gone of when things are getting a little off kilter, I'm the same way. Like, Hey, you need to go to the gym. You need to go take a nap, eat whatever you got to do. Like you need to go re recalibrate.

Josh Itzoe (52:54.323)
Right. Right.

Josh Itzoe (53:00.616)
No question.

Grant Ellis (53:09.974)
rather than run yourself to a position to where it takes you a lot longer and a lot deeper work to get back. It's the same thing. So I'm just recalibrating all day long. That's kind of what I'm doing.

Josh Itzoe (53:18.323)
Well, and I think with what you're saying too is it's like doing the inner work of like reflection. you know, it's funny, like this same mentor, he's just got nuggets of wisdom. He's kind of invested in me for about 25 years. And I'll give you two real quick.

Grant Ellis (53:28.258)
Yeah.

Grant Ellis (53:38.722)
Mmm. It's awesome.

Josh Itzoe (53:43.39)
you know, I would worry, well, I feel like this. And he's, he would often say, he's like, the fact that you recognize it means you're probably not at risk of it happening. Like if you don't recognize it, that's where I think, you know, people don't kind of recognize. Like you said, it goes from like, you know, green to yellow to red. It's kind like the post you had the other day about like the 401k, like isn't it's important, but not urgent until it gets urgent.

Grant Ellis (54:10.67)
Till it is. Yep.

Josh Itzoe (54:11.441)
until it is. you know, I think, you know, that that kind of like, reflection and self awareness, like if you can kind of see like, I know, I'm naturally wired this way, I, you know, I can fool myself into believing certain things, the fact that you can see it ahead of time, probably in part, like helps prevent it from actually happening. That's actually probably a good it's like your check engine light, you know, a lot of times people, they just ignore the check engine light.

that that's actually from a, you know, therapy standpoint, that was the one of the biggest values I got was like a framework of like, Hey, here's some check engine lights. When you see these things go on, like it doesn't necessarily mean that like, you know, the, the, you know, the engine's about to like, your transmission is going to blow up, but it probably indicates there's a little bit of an issue and you probably want to get it checked. Just it's in the long run, it's going to be way less expensive to like, you know,

Grant Ellis (54:50.35)
Yeah, yeah.

Grant Ellis (55:04.44)
Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (55:11.327)
get it checked and maybe get it fixed before you have to replace the whole engine, because that gets really expensive. The other thing, kind of what you talked about, one of the things you said and that brought to mind what one of these mentors had said to me is, he said once are natural and they're human. And everybody has them. He's like,

You can't just want your wants. You have to want what your wants lead to. And I always thought that was like really wise. mean, just, you know, if I want to lose weight, like that's great. If you want to lose 20 pounds, like everybody wants to lose 20 pounds. What you really have to want is the things that that leads to. I have to go to bed earlier. I have to drink more water. I have to get up early and work out and go to the gym when it's dark and I have to

maybe say no to going out to that late night dinner. If you want those things, like the weight will take care of itself, but you can't just kind of want the outcome. And I kind of hear you saying that. And I actually think that's very applicable to whether you call it financial planning, financial wealth, whatever it is, is it's very process focused, outcomes are so much out of our control.

Grant Ellis (56:09.56)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Itzoe (56:33.895)
And in the industry, we want to talk about like, we have all this control over outcomes and we don't. All we have control over is the process. You know, it's like, I love to play blackjack. Like there's a way to play blackjack that gives you the best odds possible of beating the house. The odds are not in your favor. So if you play it long enough, you're probably not going to win. But if you follow the steps and play it according to the book, like it doesn't guarantee a good outcome.

Grant Ellis (56:43.181)
Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (57:03.465)
but it gives you the best possible option. And how important is that, do you feel like in talking with, you know, with kind of clients and whatnot is helping them to, even if it's an incremental minor step, 19 year old guy with two kids who's laying blacktop every day, 25 bucks, you know, you may, that may feel like spitting in the ocean a little bit, but how important is that just incrementally taking a step?

Grant Ellis (57:30.734)
It's everything. It's funny because when you come to financial planning, whether it's personal wealth clients, the terminology again in our world, it's insane, right? But you've basically got personal wealth clients, people that you actively manage money for and help them with their financial planning, and then you've got participants that you help. Same scenario, but it's more from an educational basis. Okay, so either group though, it's the same thing that we've been talking about the whole time of the emotional intelligence side of everything and human beings trying to live their lives and

and do things. And what happens is our industry comes in, we put on our suits, and we come in and start talking about strategic asset allocation and how if you don't have this, you don't have this. here's 74 tools. And then they read the news about the guy who stole all the money from the basketball player. now he's and it's just the consumer is just they are so overwhelmed with information. And when you look at a lot of this stuff, yes, financial planning, wealth management, investment management, fiduciary consulting can all be extremely complex.

It's one of the things I love about it. I love our world that we get to deal with legal and compliance and legislation and all the things I do. But it's again, knowing your audience, right? For that, that 20 year old kid that is life changing money that if he could do that for a long time, it is life changing money. But if it's not, if it, if he, the odds of him contributing that for the rest of his life are not very high, but you know what is when down the road, something happens and he needs some money. There's a little bit of backup, right? So it's, it's again,

not having these kind of blinders on of trying to solve the same problem for every person. Meeting that person where they're at, understanding what they're not going to do, right? I've always loved the whole like, 401k advisor presentations like you got to put in 15 % of pay or you're never gonna like, come on, like, again, look at the people and sometimes they can't do more.

but let that doesn't mean they shouldn't do nothing. And a lot of the conversations we're having are around that concept of I know how you feel and we have the advantage and the hardship of seeing what happens when you do nothing. Right. And so if anything, when we're doing these education, especially in a group format, it's different one-on-one, we can really narrow down, but on a group format, it's I it's let me tell you a story and I'm going to like literally everything is just, let me tell you a story. And these are specific stories that we've seen. And then let me

Grant Ellis (59:51.73)
show you what happened when they made a change and how that impacted their life. And so it's taking into account 401k education to me. The part that we miss is we are educated educating only about the 401k. Right? Like that is one tool that is one piece of a very complex puzzle of someone's personal financial life. So talk about everything else too. And if you address their most concerning issues, for example, you've got somebody who's got a kid about to enter college.

Well, guess what? They're probably figuring out how they're going to pay for it. Address that, which frees them up to have more flexibility to then contribute to the 401k. So it's just all intertwined and it's the ability to come in and say, let me, not my agenda. What is that? Again, it's always this. What does that person need? And then focus on that. And you can have massive amounts of impact with people with small steps. You know what it is? The biggest, I mean, the biggest moving pieces with personal financial planning and participant education.

Are the simplest, right? We get people saving a certain amount for a long period of time and not have a bunch of debt. You're good. You're good. Yeah. Like we can get complex down the road with taxation and all that stuff, but in the beginning, let's just get some habits in place. And sometimes that goes, Hey, I know you're, I know you're worried about this. So let's address this. And then we can talk about the 401k.

Josh Itzoe (01:00:57.545)
else kind of takes care of itself.

Josh Itzoe (01:01:12.393)
Well, and that is.

You know, listeners of this, I've quoted this ad nauseam, but there's a great quote by Woody Guthrie. And he said, you know, any damn fool can make a simple thing complex, but it takes true genius to make a complex thing simple. you know, there's something called Occam's razor, right? When you face two situations, like generally the simplest approach is the best. And, you know, I do think there's a lot of wisdom for people listening to kind of what Grant said is,

Grant Ellis (01:01:25.672)
Yes!

Grant Ellis (01:01:33.87)
Mm-hmm.

Grant Ellis (01:01:38.338)
Yep. Yep.

Josh Itzoe (01:01:46.014)
I don't think you should shy away from like an optimal, like a 15%. Like I think having those conversations, but also realizing it's not a binary, it's not like 15 % or bust. And, you know, how do you, as just a savings rate and like you said, that might not be, you know, like I think about your client who, you know, sadly just passed away. And I think I saw a post that you said that like literally last week, you got her estate planning documents two days before.

Grant Ellis (01:02:05.218)
Mm-hmm.

Grant Ellis (01:02:12.622)
two days before.

Josh Itzoe (01:02:15.101)
Like, you know what? That, you got the big thing right there rather than two days after. And I think there is something just in life.

Like, I believe behavior always follows belief. And if you can get people to believe and to buy into a strategy and then start to take incremental steps, it builds, it's contagious. It's like the weight loss thing, you know? If...

Grant Ellis (01:02:35.63)
Sure.

Grant Ellis (01:02:47.66)
Yeah, that specific example is now a story I will use with clients who are notorious for not getting estate planning documents done. We're going to have that conversation now and it's not, you know, it's not from a book, right? It's just like, let me tell you why this is so important.

Josh Itzoe (01:02:57.183)
100%.

Josh Itzoe (01:03:01.819)
Right, right, right. It's not one of those analogies from the sales training you've had and you're like, look, let me tell you actually, let's, and even more than that, let's talk about what would have happened if she hadn't. You know, if she hadn't.

Grant Ellis (01:03:14.754)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's wild, man. And then even, and we'll use that like with participants too, of like, there's some things we really want you to, to hit. It's, it's really interesting too, with participants also though, is as much as we come with our suits and our big words, when you come and you explain things to them, they are empowered by it. You've, you've seen it. You've seen people's eyes light up when you explain why it's called a 401k. And they're like, nobody's ever told me that there's this.

there's this expectation with people in this, in our culture, that you're supposed to know everything about all things financial, even though no one has ever taught you a bit of it. And you feel bad if you don't. So a lot of what we do is just terminology. Say you've heard this term, let's just explain what a mutual fund actually is. And they're like, I have no idea. That's crazy. But the simple things also earn us the right to talk about the more complex things. Right? So I mean, our most attended

presentation last year for participants was how to build a budget. Are you kidding me? Like you can Google how to build a budget. can now AI can probably build you one, but we built one on a spreadsheet live for tons of people. And by far they're like, thank you so much. So part of it is also reminding ourselves cause we're in it every day. So what do we do is we ask a lot, what would be helpful for us to talk about with you? They'll tell you, right? Like we don't have to make it up. Like we don't know how to build a budget.

Josh Itzoe (01:04:37.737)
they'll tell you. That's right.

Grant Ellis (01:04:41.708)
Let's do it. So it's just so much of it is just getting out of our own way and asking really pointed good questions and actually listening to it and then doing doing what they say.

Josh Itzoe (01:04:42.654)
Right.

Josh Itzoe (01:04:52.723)
Well, when you do that, you give people space and permission to be vulnerable. I found, you know, it's interesting is I've found that most people would not admit they don't admit they don't know something, but they will admit that they're unsure. It's the same. so even like even in my platform perceptive, there's, you know, there's this strategic questionnaire that

Grant Ellis (01:04:56.461)
Yeah.

Grant Ellis (01:05:04.428)
No, especially that stuff. Yeah.

Josh Itzoe (01:05:17.895)
someone could go through and I learned it used to be like yes, no, I don't know. We changed it to yes, no, unsure and people answered unsure way more. And so my point in that is when you ask people, know, when you ask somebody, even the question of like, do you know versus like, like, do you like

Grant Ellis (01:05:26.574)
Yeah, human psychology,

Josh Itzoe (01:05:40.543)
fully understand or is this a little confusing? Like you now give people permission to be vulnerable. Once they get vulnerable and they can admit, yeah, I don't really, I am unsure. Now you can meet them and that's, yeah.

Grant Ellis (01:05:51.214)
And it's okay, right? Yeah. And it's not, you're not supposed, we kind of laugh and we're like, Hey, what do do for a living? And they're like, I'm a teacher. Like, guess what? I don't know how to do what you do. You're not supposed to know how to do what I do. And so, yeah, like I got exactly. So we're not supposed to know. So let's just get at this on the table that you're not supposed to know all this stuff. It's okay. And everybody laughs and walls are broken down, right?

Josh Itzoe (01:05:59.22)
Right. Right. You probably think building a lesson plan is pretty simple. If I had to build a lesson plan, I'd be a mess. That's right.

Josh Itzoe (01:06:12.199)
Yeah, no question, no question. Grant, this has been an awesome discussion.

I learned a ton today. I wish you continued success. have no doubt that you will. More than anything, just I want to see you continue to be successful because I know you're impacting a ton of people and magnifying kind of that impact. And I just think there's so many nuggets of wisdom you have today for listeners. Like, go follow Grant. I'll throw in the show notes. His LinkedIn.

We didn't even get into kind of that whole process. Maybe we'll have that as a different conversation.

Grant Ellis (01:06:53.548)
Yeah, maybe one day we can get a little more like tactical.

Josh Itzoe (01:06:56.255)
practical agreed agreed, but I just have a ton of respect for you and thank you so much and and thanks for telling your story today and Anything kind of as we wrap up what would be your for a lot of advisors listen? There's a lot of next-gen advisors like what would be your single best piece of advice? I'm gonna throw you on the spot

Grant Ellis (01:07:19.216)
my goodness. You put me on the spot for, okay, let me comment first of all, I appreciate the kind of words I listen. It's awesome to be able to have real conversations with people, right? And that sounds really fundamentally kind of baseline, but it's not right now. My, my advice is, is get to be, somebody who is studying human condition, if anything, like we talk so much about all the tactics and strategies and all the things that if you get into any of the forums, it's always about that.

right? And I get it. I am a sucker for a good tactic. Like, Hey, here's this email I sent that's got a 57 % open rate. Like, okay. I'll tell you what I got back from a conference though. And I won't take up too much time because I know we're running low, but it w what I, what I am always reminded of when I'm at a conference of very like good advisors, is that there's a bazillion different ways to be successful in our world. Right? There's a guy that like has 120 plans and he cold called all of them. I'm like, you lunatic.

And then there's, you know, the people who educate there's, there's all of it works. The key differential and what to me will make you stand above everyone else and also enjoy life more is your ability to develop relationship capital is to be a human that understands other human beings and how they work and their needs and their desires. My frameworks are super simple for a reason, but my biggest framework is like, I don't

I mean, I'm with you. don't prep for a lot of meetings like because I walk in and say, Hey, I'd love to hear your story. Would you share a little bit of it with me? And that's it. So it's like free yourself up from all of the stuff that's in your head. Cause I know that feeling of like, okay, what do I say? I need to mention three 38 and I need to mention income products. And, and you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like if you come at my, my team's always kind of surprised. They're like, do you need us to prep anything? I'm like, no, because I,

I'm here to get to know this person. So cultivating the ability to get deep with people, to have conversations, understand human intelligence, human emotion, all that stuff, that will make your life more enjoyable and will also lead to more business, especially considering where we're headed with AI and technology. You have to remember that you are not going to separate yourself with a tool. It will not happen anymore. And so you better be really, really good at being a human being.

Josh Itzoe (01:09:40.138)
What I hear you say, if I could summarize that, and I think that's so important, tools are important, but they are not the primary. What you really need to do and what you're talking about is like, how do you become a master craftsman? If you put the best tools in the hands of somebody like that, you know, I like to woodwork. have a.

Grant Ellis (01:09:47.576)
Yep, love them, they're cool.

Josh Itzoe (01:10:02.688)
whole shop I have a ton of tools. I'm decent. My grandfather was literally a he was an artisan. He was incredible. You could put the cheapest worst tools in his hands and he was so good that he could create anything. You know, you put the best tools in my hands and I'm like, okay, but I think that's what I hear you saying is like the human.

Grant Ellis (01:10:10.134)
Really? That's awesome. I love it.

Josh Itzoe (01:10:32.143)
aspect of this, like become a master craftsman. Use the tools that can help you like create things, but the tools are not the outcome. You have to have the right tools and every advisor should be leveraging the best tool set. But it's really about having the skill as a craftsman to be able to build. And if you can do that.

Grant Ellis (01:10:39.17)
Mm-hmm.

Grant Ellis (01:10:51.362)
Yep, I agree.

Josh Itzoe (01:11:00.915)
That's what really matters.

Grant Ellis (01:11:03.756)
Yeah. I love that analogy. I'll give you one more that we kind of use sometimes because the tools are there to make us more efficient and better at what we do. Right. But you don't go into your doctor's office and be like, Hey, show me all your scalpels. I want to, I want to make sure that you have the most up-to-date scalpel. You don't do that. You go like that physician that you're going to allow to do surgery on you is because you believe they are technically sound and you trust them. Right. First, those two things have to coincide. If you don't believe they're technically sound.

You're not going to let them operate on you. And if you don't trust them, you're not going to let them operate on you. So that's what we're talking about is absolutely tools are important. You've built some great tools. Like I, I think they're unbelievably important, especially in our space, because there's a lot of noise and a lot of things we've got to solve for these days, but just remember they are not the objective. They're there to help you get to the objective with your clients.

Josh Itzoe (01:11:58.687)
All right, my friend, this has been great. Thank you so much.

Grant Ellis (01:12:00.29)
This was a blast, dude. Hey, thank you for having me. It's kind of sad. This is our first time actually having an in-depth conversation. So hopefully it will be the first of many. And I'm going to have to reciprocate and have you on the 401k playbook podcast here soon too. I'd love to, love to dig into a few things and hear a little bit more about your story as well.

Josh Itzoe (01:12:08.041)
read.

Josh Itzoe (01:12:18.463)
Absolutely. Thank you, my friend.

Grant Ellis (01:12:20.366)
All right, brother. Appreciate you.